-10_14 to 21 May 1940.htm

14 MAY 1940

SRI AUROBINDO: The Germans seem to have discovered some new methods of capturing forts.

SATYENDRA: They have made a considerable advance in Belgium.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. In the last war also it was like that. They made rapid progress at the beginning and that, the French say, was because the British soldiers were running away at the approach of the Germans.

NIRODBARAN: If that is true, they will do the same now too.

SRI AUROBINDO: One English correspondent said that the Germans were rushing like wolves.

PURANI: From Cologne, any Belgian town, it seems, is only thirty minutes' flight by air. So they can attack very easily by air.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but air flights can't decide a battle. It is the land army on which victory depends. In France the Germans

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proved inferior to the French, but elsewhere they proved superior.

NIRODBARAN: Is Amery better than Zetland?

SRI AUROBINDO: No, he is a die-hard, I think.

PURANI: In the Kalyan, one of Bejoy Goswami's disciples has written that in his last days Goswami was at Puri during Dana-yajna and because of that he ran into heavy debts. When he fell ill he was advised to go to Calcutta, but because of his debts he could not leave Puri. His disciples managed to pay off the debts. I don't know if he died at Calcutta.

SRI AUROBINDO: No, he died at Puri. It is said he was poisoned. By Sthambhan he stayed the effects but was ultimately overcome.

PURANI: He used to feed and take care of many people. He seems to have said that poor people without food can't accept the message of spirituality. So they must be fed first. It was done in so extensive a way that his disciples ran into debts and became poor themselves.

SRI AUROBINDO: Then their spirituality must have deteriorated when they became poor!

PURANI: Goswami said they should not think of the morrow. Whatever they had they must distribute to the poor.

SRI AUROBINDO: Not thinking of food and distributing food to others are two different ideas without any connection between them. Spirituality does not depend upon that.

PURANI: Their idea of God is that He is all love and compassion. So we must also try to be so and relieve other people's misery.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is all sentiment and nobody will believe that God is all compassion. Feeding other people does not cure poverty, it only relieves it. That is the fallacy of philanthropy. To cure poverty one has to find the cause. And it is not true that poor people can't accept spirituality. All ascetics are poor.

EVENING

The radio news said that Germany had occupied Rotterdam and separated Holland from Belgium.

SRI AUROBINDO : What are the Allies doing? After sending an advance army they seem to be trying to sit comfortably in the rear. And the Germans won't let them have any comfort.

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PURANI : They don't seem to have any plan of action.

NIRODBARAN: The only plan seems to be to fall back according to plan.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, they are sitting behind fortifications. And if they have any plan it is quite inadequate. The war news is very obscure nowadays.

15 MAY 1940

The radio news announced that the Commander-in-Chief of Holland had asked the soldiers to ceasefire because of the sacrifice of lives.

SRI AUROBINDO: What sort of idea is that? Do they think they can win without any sacrifice? Hitler seems to be right in his opinion of their power of resistance.

PURANI : There seems to be some treason among them.

SRI AUROBINDO: Probably, but the Commander-in-Chief is not supposed to be a Nazi.

PURANI: France is fighting hard, especially her air force. British pilots seem better than German.

SRI AUROBINDO: Individually they are superior to the Germans. The paper said that three Hurricanes fought with twenty German planes and brought down some. The Germans act by mass and drive.

EVENING

SRI AUROBINDO: It seems Amery is not a die-hard. He has said in an interview that India will soon have to be considered as independent and he has stood against Churchill's attack on India policy. So with his appointment as Secretary of State India may have a chance. Of course Halifax would have been best. It is a remarkable Ministry. Most of the ablest men of England are there except Hore-Belisha and Lloyd George. As I expected, Morrison and Evans are taken. Morrison is one of the best organisers. Their coming in will help to prevent any quarrel with Labour.

The Belgian position seems to be better today.

PURANI: There is talk of an attack on Switzerland. In that case Italy may take her slice.

SATYENDRA: Then it will be a European war.

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SRI AUROBINDO: The Moscow radio does not approve of Germany's attack on the Netherlands, Udar was saying. It seems to be some special information.

SATYENDRA (gravely): It is in today's paper.

SRI AUROBINDO: Which paper?

SATYENDRA: The Indian Express. (Bursts of laughter)

PURANI: If true, Russia may go against Germany.

SRI AUROBINDO: Russia has counted on both sides being exhausted by the war and then Stalin will have his chance. But if Germany wins it will be too powerful.

PURANI: America seems to be changing her tone now and thinking in terms of war.

SRI AUROBINDO: She thinks she will be able to keep out of the war if the Allies win. But if they go down she will have to come to their help.

16 MAY 1940

NIRODBARAN: Dilip has received a letter from Sir Francis Younghusband asking him to be a member of the Fellowship of Faiths. It is an irony since he has lost all faith in fellowship.

SRI AUROBINDO: Hitler is uniting all into a fellowship of nations. (Laughter)

NIRODBARAN: Dilip says the Mother will have to put forth more force to save France.

SRI AUROBINDO: What an idea! He thinks that the Mother has a special concern for France?

SATYENDRA: Many people say that she does not care what happens to Britain but France she will save.

SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): How can it be possible to do that without saving Britain also? They are allies.

SATYENDRA: Yes, but Hitler is trying to divide them. His wrath is against England. He is likely to attack England directly.

SRI AUROBINDO: What about their fleet? Do they think that the Italians will come and destroy it?

NIRODBARAN: The Mother will save France and Sri Aurobindo India.

SATYENDRA: People think that Sri Aurobindo is not interested in India.

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NIRODBARAN: He is a world citizen now.

SATYENDRA: He is too great to be busy over India. He is busy with the problem of life.

SRI AUROBINDO: Who says that?

NIRODBARAN: X. He is still very much upset over the India problem.

SRI AUROBINDO: The Pakistan scheme is not of much interest.

NIRODBARAN: Not Pakistan. He speaks of Indian freedom.

SRI AUROBINDO: Indian freedom? India will inevitably be free if Hitler and Stalin are removed. Otherwise I can't give a guarantee.

NIRODBARAN: They will be removed when the Supermind descends. (Laughter)

SRI AUROBINDO: What did you say? They will be removed when the Supermind descends or it will descend when they are removed?

NIRODBARAN: It is the same thing.

SRI AUROBINDO (after a while): The Dutch seem to be good fighters but they don't seem to have brains. They have lost about a quarter of their army without holding any position.

SATYENDRA: Their Commander-in-Chief has asked them to cease fire.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is in the central part. In Zeeland they are still fighting. He has asked them to cease fire because the army was being attacked from the rear. Instead of ceasing fire they could draw back to the Belgian line.

SATYENDRA: They may do that.

SRI AUROBINDO: They are only thinking about it. That's why I say that they don't seem to have brains.

NIRODBARAN: The Allies could not send any help to Holland.

SRI AUROBINDO: No, there was no time. They have taken the strategic line from Antwerp to Namur and sent an advance army in front. If there had been a previous arrangement they could have gone to their help in time.

NIRODBARAN: The Assistant Secretary of Viswa Bharati has written to Sisir that the Committee has decided to present Tagore's works to the Ashram.

SRI AUROBINDO: What is his name?

NIRODBARAN: Kishori Mohan Santara.

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SRI AUROBINDO : Santara? Where is he swimming?¹

NIRODBARAN: In his atheism. He is a staunch Brahmo and at the same time an atheist.

SRI AUROBINDO: How is that? Brahmoism is supposed to be theism or rather Deism -no, more than Deism because Brahmos pray to God for help.

NIRODBARAN: He writes that after reading your books he finds a new light.

Jatin Bal has written a letter, putting some questions to you:

1. Do you think physics and chemistry will ever be able to know the truth of the phenomenon of life?

2. There is a passage in The Life Divine: "Science cannot dictate ..." Do you mean to say that there will never be any conciliation between science and metaphysics?

3. Will science do well to take into consideration the spiritual view of things or keep strictly on its own lines?

4. Einstein does not decry metaphysics but asserts that science will show him the truth. How far is he right?

5. To a friend Einstein said: "It is my inner conviction that the development of science itself seeks in the main to satisfy the longing for knowledge which psychologically asserts itself as religious feeling." Is he not right?

6. He also says that for the misapplication of science human nature is to blame and not science which is a search after pure knowledge and truth. Can it be said that science is solely responsible for all the evils of the world and religion alone stands for our good? Can we even say that religion is superior to science or vice versa? Is not each great in its own sphere?

SRI AUROBINDO: I. Physics can know the truth of the phenomenon of life and that also when combined with biology, but not the essential truth of life. Such truth means consciousness, basic reality, and how can scientists know it by their science? Science is concerned with the process of things. If science wants to know the fundamental truth, it has to go beyond process. That is why the continental scientists do not agree with Jeans and Eddington. They say that it is not within the scope of science to be busy with the metaphysical aspect of things. It is concerned, as I said, with process; if it goes beyond that, it is no longer science. Do you understand? I have dealt with all that in The Life Divine, Part II.

¹In Bengali "santar" means "swimming".

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2. Conciliation? There is no opposition between science and metaphysics. Each is concerned with its own sphere and the connection between the two may be established.

3. How can science take the spiritual view? That is not its business and, if it takes that view, it will no longer be science.

4. Truth? Which truth? If he means ultimate truth, how can science show him that? If it is the truth of things, that is another matter.

5. What is meant by religious feeling and pure knowledge? Ultimate knowledge?

6. That science is concerned with discovery is true, though only partially. For application science is also responsible. Just see how scientists are engaged in devising various methods of destruction in Europe. So how can it be said that science is not responsible for application?

Science and religion are both great in their own respective spheres, but in a sense religion is superior in that its appeal is wider and deeper than that of science. If it is admitted that man has a soul, an inner consciousness, then religion is the best means for this consciousness to develop into a higher state of being.

Even scientists in Europe don't make the statement that religion is the root of all evil. Such a statement would invite the opposite view that science is the root of all evil. Science has made humanity materialistic in attitude and put tremendous powers in its hands, which it abuses. You may say that science is not responsible for the misuse, that its business is discovery. Then it can be argued that it has given humanity these instruments without making it ready for their use.

EVENING

CHAMPAKLAL: It seems Dr. R says that Hitler is winning because Sri Aurobindo is helping him with his force. (Laughter)

SRI AUROBINDO: What? Does he believe that I want to be a subject of Hitler's?

SATYENDRA: He must be pulling somebody's leg. America is warning all Americans to leave Italy.

SRI AUROBINDO: They expect perhaps that Italy will come into the war.

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SATYENDRA: Yes. If there are any American casualties, they fear their country might be dragged into the war. They want to avoid the war.

SRI AUROBINDO: They seem to be able only to talk like their Kellogg Pact.

PURANI: Or they may come in when it is too late.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, everybody is too late except Hitler.

Narvik is coming in again. The Allies seem to have taken a town (laughing and pointing a finger) - and that too because of the French troops that have landed.

17 MAY 1940

EVENING

SRI AUROBINDO: It seems it is not merely five or six of our people but more than half that are in sympathy with Hitler and want him to win.¹

PURANI (laughing): Half?

SRI AUROBINDO: No, it is not a matter to laugh at. It is a very serious matter. The Government can dissolve the Ashram at any moment. In Indo-China all religious bodies have been dissolved. And here the whole of Pondicherry is against us. They cannot do anything only because Governor Bonvin is friendly towards us. But even he, if he hears that people in the Ashram are pro-Hitler, will be compelled to take steps, at least to expel those who are so. If these people want the Ashram to be dissolved, they can come and tell me and I will dissolve it instead of the police doing it. They have no idea about the world, and talk like children. Hitlerism is the greatest menace that the world has ever met. If Hitler wins, do they think India has any chance of being free? It is a well-known fact that Hitler has an eye on India. He is openly talking of world-empire. He will turn towards the Balkans, crushing Italy on the way, which would

¹It may be mentioned that the pro-Hitler bias was due not to perversity but to ignorance. Most regrettably, the true nature of Hitlerism was not realised in the midst of the animosity against England and the other so-called imperialist powers, the possessors of colonies in Asia and Africa, who happened to be Hitler's enemies. This dangerous ignorance was a widespread phenomenon in the East.

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be a matter of three weeks, then Turkey and then Asia Minor. Asia Minor ultimately means India. If there he meets Stalin, then it is only a question as to who wins and comes to India.

I hear K says that Russia can come now and conquer India. It is this kind of slave mentality that keeps India in bondage. He pretends to spirituality. Doesn't he know that the first thing that Stalin will do is to wipe out spirituality from India, apart from the fact that his own class will be crushed out?¹

They say Hitler is applying his Poland-method on the Western Front — leading with armoured tanks and following up with infantry. (Addressing Purani) The Americans are waiting and comfortably thinking that the Allies will win.

PURANI : It doesn't look as if they will join the war now.

SRI AUROBINDO: No, it is very difficult for them unless they are compelled to—later on.

PURANI: The American group that came here was talking bitterly against the war and said, "No more of it." They have sacrificed heavily in the past and spent a lot of money. They want peace now.

SRI AUROBINDO: If they want peace they have to help in keeping it. They fled away after leaving Wilson in the lurch.

PURANI: Their loans also have not been paid back and they are bitter.

SRI AUROBINDO: That, of course.

PURANI: Sir Akbar Hydari has got a full set of the Arya.

SRI AUROBINDO: How?

PURANI: It seems his own bookseller from whom he has bought many books had a set. As soon as he knew that Sir Akbar wanted it, he gave the whole set gratis. Naturally Sir Akbar was very pleased.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, having it gratis would be an added pleasure. (Laughter)

¹The same morning, it seems, the Mother also spoke to Nolini to the following effect: "It is treachery against Sri Aurobindo to wish for Hitler's victory. Sn Aurobindo's cause is closely connected with that of the Allies and he is working night and day for it. It is because my nationality is French that the Ashram is allowed to exist. Otherwise it would have been dissolved long ago. There were many attempts to do so. If Hitler or Stalin wins, spirituality is doomed. Stalin will come to India and there will be no chance for freedom for a century."

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18 MAY 1940

SRI AUROBINDO: The Allies seem to have retreated not because of German pressure but for geographical configuration with the French. If they go on retreating in this way, I don't see how they can win. But have the Germans penetrated the Maginot Line?

NIRODBARAN: That is not said, but the Maginot Line on the Belgian side seems a scattered fortification.

SRI AUROBINDO: Scattered? Then it may be possible to penetrate it.

PURANI : The Allies also should attack somewhere.

SRI AUROBINDO: The French have been trained for long to be on the defensive. Now that Hitler has changed his plan, they have to take up a new position. The French are very good in attack; they are good also in defence.

NIRODBARAN: Amery says that he believes in self-government and wants to keep an open mind as regards India.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he says that he won't make any prejudgment. If he does that, it will be very good. Zetland stuck to his ideas like a leech-just like Congress to its principles.

NIRODBARAN: Dilip was very glad to learn what you had said about pro-Hitler sympathy. It has come at the right time, he says. He was being jeered at for being pro-Ally. When he said he was sad at Holland's defeat, they remarked, "You are pro-Ally?"

SRI AUROBINDO: They are glad that Holland was occupied? Very strange, and yet they want freedom for India! That is one thing I can't swallow. How can they have sympathy for Hitler who is destroying other nations, taking away their liberty? It is not only pro-Ally sympathy but sympathy for humanity that they are jeering at.

NIRODBARAN: Y was there. He remained all the time glum. He doesn't believe that England will give freedom to India.

SRI AUROBINDO: If England gave freedom to Egypt and Iraq, why not to India?

EVENING

SRI AUROBINDO: It is not such bad news. Germany hasn't entered Brussels yet; the morning radio said it had.

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PURANI: No. The Allies' aeroplanes seem to be very active. They have ordered 4000 new aeroplanes costing 650 million dollars.

SRI AUROBINDO: That means one plane costs eight lakhs of rupees, and it can be destroyed in one minute?

SATYENDRA: India can't hope to build any armaments. America is putting a huge sum aside for armaments.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, they say they must have 50,000 aeroplanes and a standing army one million strong.

NIRODBARAN: Only one million?

SRI AUROBINDO: One million is a very large number in peace time. Except in countries with conscription there are no such large armies during peace.

PURANI: England has asked all British subjects to evacuate from Gibraltar, owing to Italy's threat, perhaps.

SRI AUROBINDO: But somebody says that Italy will have to wait at least a fortnight before joining the war because a big liner of hers is in the Atlantic, which can at once be seized. But nobody knows what Mussolini will do. He is a great bluffer and may keep on bluffing as bluffing is very pleasant to him. (laughter)

PURANI : Italy has contempt for Germany.

SRI AUROBINDO: Not contempt, but hatred. (Laughter)

PURANI: Spengler supports this instinct of barbarism.

SRI AUROBINDO: Does he?

PURANI: Yes, he says that when a race goes down, it is by this instinct that it rises up again. By this instinct, he says, the race tills the soil, ploughs the land and builds houses and slowly builds up a culture, but when it progresses from there towards a city-life and towards civilisation its downfall begins. This has been the curve of civilisation throughout. For instance, a farmer never thinks of how many children he has, he goes on producing and producing. But a civilised man, after having two or three children, begins to think and as soon as he thinks his decadence begins. So, according to Spengler, culture exists only when man is bound to the primitive conditions of life by his instinct and ploughs land and cultivates it.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is not culture; that is survival of the force of life. And it is from this animal stage of existence that man has progressed into a higher one. What according to him would be progress then?

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PURANI: He maintains that humanity will always follow this curve from the primitive stage to the height of civilisation and then to decadence. This has always been so.

SRI AUROBINDO: It may have been but need not be. Such repetition would be the failure of the human race. The human race has risen from the animal and it must push farther. If it does not, it will have to make room for some other species.

PURANI: Hitler's power seems to have started even from Hindenburg's time?

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. The German army had already made preparations but they were afraid of what the Allies would say. Hitler gave them the first start. Of course the British are responsible for all this. They thought that France would become very powerful, so in order to keep the French in check they helped Germany to power. After this war the same trouble will occur again. Some people predict that after the war there will be a socialistic State, which means that instead of individualistic capitalism, the State will be capitalistic.

PURANI: Yes. like, "Give us your cows. We will give you milk."

SRI AUROBINDO: No, "Give us your cows and buy the milk." (Laughter) In Russia one has to earn one's very life.

PURANI: There they have now also made a discrimination in wages. And if anyone has more money, he can deposit it with the State and get interest on it. It is that which makes Trotsky wild and say that Stalin is for capitalism.

SRI AUROBINDO: There nobody can be rich and buy luxuries, because then he will be suspected. It seems only the authors are rich in Russia because the masses are being educated to read more. But what will the authors do with their money? Of course they can make a wise gift of it to the State.

PURANI: The Russian Government also gives more wages to the people if their output is more.

SRI AUROBINDO: That again is against Communism.

PURANI : One thing in favour of Socialism is that it promises to give bread and work to people.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is easy; it only requires a different arrangement. Under the capitalistic system people also got work. Only because circumstances have changed they have been thrown out of it. And the two things that are responsible are machinery and war.

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PURANI: Machinery has made the problem of unemployment so acute.

SATYENDRA: The problem of the world remains the same.

SRI AUROBINDO: Under Socialism there will be universal poverty. Only the State will be rich. Socialism can become successful only when people have got rid of the egoistic impulse in their actions and movements.

19 MAY 1940

PURANI: Instead of always being on the defensive, if the Allies also attacked it would be good.

SRI AUROBINDO: For that one must have superior strength of the army as well as armaments. Otherwise it is dangerous. The Allies are superior in the air. It seems that their machines are better than the German ones, and the American ones are still better. If so it would be an advantage.

NIRODBARAN: The Allies are trying to cut off the German petrol supply by destroying their communications and depots.

PURANI: They may still get it from Rumania through old contracts.

SRI AUROBINDO: No, Rumania has stopped all supply. By supplying oil she would invite her own invasion.

PURANI: Even without receiving oil, Germany may attack.

SATYENDRA: Then better to be attacked without supplying

NIRODBARAN: X has found from your own writings what happened to you in your eighteenth year. You have written in Aurobinder Patra: "At fourteen the seed sprouted and at eighteen it established itself firmly."

SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): That is a psychological event, not an outside action.

NIRODBARAN: Maybe, but it led to action.

SRI AUROBINDO: At eighteen, I think we started in London the secret Lotus and Dagger Society.

NIRODBARAN: Then it is an event!

SRI AUROBINDO: It lasted only for a day. (Laughter)

NIRODBARAN: X also says that your eighteen year cycle has a close link with his. In 1890 he was born, in 1908 he joined the

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Swadeshi Movement and in 1926 he came here. Nolini's cycle also seems to coincide with it. He joined the Movement in 1908.

SRI AUROBINDO: But what happened to him in 1926?

NIRODBARAN: I don't know.

SRI AUROBINDO (addressing Purani): When was the Ashram started?

PURANI: In 1926.

SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): There you are!

PURANI: It is like Spengler's fitting facts to theories.

I had again a talk with Doraiswamy. He heard from Nolini that the Mother has said that at present the freedom of India would be catastrophic for the country. You have said that the demon of slavery is sucking the life-blood of India. These two statements he does not know how to reconcile. I said that there was no antagonism between the two.

SRI AUROBINDO: The Mother says that two conditions must be satisfied before India gets her freedom. One is unity; the other, defence. If there is no unity, then India will be prey to another power. We can't afford to have a civil war in India, for that would surely invite another power to occupy her. Even C. R. Das told me that this Hindu-Muslim question must be solved before the British leave and he was no less a patriot than anyone else.

EVENING

SATYENDRA: What is this flame-throwing business the Germans have started?

SRI AUROBINDO: That is a real sign of the Asura. Hitler has many devilish things in store, it seems — works of devilish ingenuity.

NIRODBARAN (addressing Satyendra): Your Indian Express prints in headlines that the Germans are only seventy miles from Paris.

SATYENDRA: It is from your American correspondent.

SRI AUROBINDO: The French frontier is about one hundred to one hundred thirty miles from Paris. So seventy miles is nothing alarming. We are accustomed to distances. Madras is more than one hundred miles from here, yet considered pretty close. But seventy miles in Europe is quite a good distance. I thought this extension of the Maginot Line had been completed before the war began. They say it was done only during the eight months of the war.

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PURANI: Yes.

SRI AUROBINDO: That was during Daladier's time. That is just like Daladier. He talks more than he does. So he has been politely pushed out.

PURANI: He did not perhaps calculate an attack through Belgium..

SRI AUROBINDO: Calculations always go wrong. It is said that Russia is panicky and Stalin upset over Hitler's success.

PURANI: Yes, before also there was such news. There may be some truth there.

SATYENDRA: Stalin thought the Allies would win.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is another calculation. No, he thought that both powers would be exhausted and then he would have his chance.

PURANI: Then Dr. André's prophecy that he would be the dictator of Europe would come true.

NIRODBARAN: After the Finnish war, it does not seem possible That has been a pointer to the limits of his army's capacity and strength.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, he has been moderate after that. What happened is no wonder after he has killed all his generals. I suppose he has no such military knowledge as Trotsky had.

PURANI: No.

SRI AUROBINDO: The Finnish war has been reassuring to Hitler. He has seen Stalin's limited strength and thinks, "Let Stalin do now whatever he likes. After the war I will handle him."

20 MAY 1940

PURANI: Hitler's declaration that before August 15 the war has to be finished and peace agreed upon seems significant.

SRI AUROBINDO: That is the sign that he is the enemy of our work. And from the values concerned in the conflict it should be quite clear that what is behind him is the Asuric, the Titanic power.

PURANI: It is strange how he takes his decisions.

SRI AUROBINDO: It is not he who takes the decisions. The Being behind him decides.

PURANI: It knows perhaps that, August 15 being your birthday, there is going to be some descent of the Divine on that date.

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SRI AUROBINDO: I don't think it believes in any such descent. It would say, "I must make some decisive movement before anything decisive happens on that date." This Being comes here from time to time and sees what kind of work is going on.

NIRODBARAN: It doesn't believe in any descent of the Divine?

SRI AUROBINDO: It believes in its own descent and is too self-confident about it.

NIRODBARAN: But surely it knows that the work here is against its own interests?

SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): Of course.

PURANI: Is it only one Being or a troop?

SRI AUROBINDO: There are more than one, but this is a very powerful Being. Have you read Paul Richard's Lord of the Nations?

PURANI: No.

SRI AUROBINDO: I believe it was not published. He was in communion with this Being and the plans and methods he has written of in the book are the same as those carried out now. He said there that the present civilisation was to be destroyed, but really it is the destruction of the whole human civilisation that is aimed at, and already in Germany Hitler has done it: there is no civilisation left there. What reigns there is barbarism supported by science — science meaning physical science. And Hitler has destroyed human civilisation wherever he has gone — as in Poland.

PURANI: Christianity and all religion seem to be his targets.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. What he may want is Ludendorf's religion —the Norse religion of a primitive type where primitive instincts are worshipped.

PURANI: Do these Beings recognise that there are higher divine powers?

SRI AUROBINDO: It depends on the type of Being. For example, some know that there are Gods but they won't admit that they are greater than themselves.

PURANI: The fight between the Devas and the Asuras is graphically described in the Puranas. Just as the Asuras are against the human race, there must be other Beings who help the human race.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes. Human beings by themselves are no match for the Asuras. If it is only an influence from the Asuras or other Beings, the result may depend on that influence. Here in Hitler's case it is not merely an influence but a possession, even perhaps an incarnation. The case of Stalin is similar. The vital world

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has descended upon the physical. That is why the intellectuals are perplexed at the destruction of their civilisation, of all the values they had made and stood for. They deny the existence of the worlds beyond the physical and so they are bound to be perplexed.

France is calling back her past to defend her present. Weygand and Pétain have been called, haven't they?

PURANI: Yes. It seems there are other military geniuses who are not getting an opportunity because of a religious bar or some such factor.

SRI AUROBINDO: Religious bar?

PURANI: They may happen to be Roman Catholics.

SRI AUROBINDO: But Weygand and Pétain are Catholics. Foch was an ardent Catholic. Nevinson, during the last war, wrote strongly against a general who was a freethinker and who had made a mess. If there were any genius about today, Weygand should know.

SATYENDRA: The Germans have made a great advance in the last twenty-four hours.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, a rapid advance.

PURANI: They have brought in a new kind of armoured tank which seems very formidable.

SRI AUROBINDO: The French anti-tank guns were not effective. So now they have brought up heavy seventy-five milli- meter guns. It is because of these tanks that the French were thrown off balance. Naturally, if thousands of tanks push forward, the infantry can't do anything unless they are supported by strong mechanical weapons. The British Army seems to rely on their air force, but the air force can't decide a war. It can only harass the enemy. The Mother says that the R.A.F. bombers can only act at night while the German bombers operate only during the day.

21 MAY 1940

SRI AUROBINDO: In the present war it seems there is only one line of defence. That makes it possible to attack from the rear. In previous wars there were several lines. In the last war there was a wide front.

NIRODBARAN: There may be more exposure to air attack.

SRI AUROBINDO: But there are the anti-aircraft weapons.

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NIRODBARAN: It is good that the French have, after all, started counter-attacking.

SRI AUROBINDO: Defensive warfare is all right if there are strong fortifications like the Maginot Line or like Namur and Liege. Otherwise, in an extensive front it is very difficult to be always on the defensive. By standing around and waiting all the time, one is likely to lose and gets all the beating without being able to give anything in return. I thought that the Siegfried Line could be broken if the French were courageous enough. Of course it would involve loss of men. It is not a continuous fortification. There are gaps supported by troops. The gaps depend on the strength of the troops.

SATYENDRA: If the English could also launch an offensive—

SRI AUROBINDO: For an offensive you must have a sufficiently big army. In the beginning Chamberlain was violently against conscription and when he started it he didn't call everybody. He did not want to paralyse the industries and export by calling them. Only before resigning did he call the last reservists, three million, and they will take about three months to be ready.

PURANI: It seems K was in favour of Hitler. When he told Counouma about it, Counouma said, "If it is so, better not speak about it. You know it is very dangerous to talk like that." And then he kept quiet.

SRI AUROBINDO: It is strange that it required Counouma to say that. And yet it is said that people do not speak about it to outsiders.

NIRODBARAN: Counouma is not considered an outsider, perhaps.

PURANI: If he had spoken to a friend of Baron for instance, he would have at once reported it. They can't tolerate such views when their relations are fighting and dying at the front.

EVENING

SRI AUROBINDO: What is the great strategic retreat the British speak of?

NIRODBARAN: They have fallen back in Belgium to keep in communication with the main army.

SATYENDRA: They have taken up their line of resistance, they say. Between Narvik and Trondjheim they are again fighting.

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NIRODBARAN: It is good that the French have, after all, started counter-attacking.

SRI AUROBINDO: Defensive warfare is all right if there are strong fortifications like the Maginot Line or like Namur and Liege. Otherwise, in an extensive front it is very difficult to be always on the defensive. By standing around and waiting all the time, one is likely to lose and gets all the beating without being able to give anything in return. I thought that the Siegfried Line could be broken if the French were courageous enough. Of course it would involve loss of men -It is not a continuous fortification. There are gaps supported by troops. The gaps depend on the strength of the troops.

SATYENDRA: If the English could also launch an offensive—

SRI AUROBINDO: It is strange that it required Counouma to say that. And yet it is said that people do not speak about it to outsiders.

NIRODBARAN: Counouma is not considered an outsider, perhaps.

PURANI: If he had spoken to a friend of Baron for instance, he would have at once reported it. They can't tolerate such views when their relations are fighting and dying at the front.

EVENING

SRI AUROBINDO: What is the great strategic retreat the British speak of?

NIRODBARAN: They have fallen back in Belgium to keep in communication with the main army.

SATYENDRA: They have taken up their line of resistance, they say. Between Narvik and Trondjheim they are again fighting.

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SRI AUROBINDO : Yes, and the British are in difficulty. Perhaps another strategic retreat may be expected. Now they are expecting a blow on England. So they may withdraw and prepare for that.

SATYENDRA: The Indian Express says that India has seventy aeroplanes to defend herself against 7000 German planes.

SRI AUROBINDO: And how many tanks?

SATYENDRA: None perhaps.

PURANI: There are some tanks — more than a hundred.

SRI AUROBINDO: A very big number indeed!

SATYENDRA: Gandhi writes in the Harijan that there is not much to choose between Imperialism and Fascism. He finds very little difference.

SRI AUROBINDO: There is a big difference. Under Fascism he wouldn't be able to write such things or say anything against the State. He would be shot.

SATYENDRA: And he still believes that by non-violence we can defend our country.

SRI AUROBINDO: Non-violence can't defend one. One can only die by it.

SATYENDRA: He believes that by such a death a change of heart can take place in the enemy.

SRI AUROBINDO: If it does, it will be after two or three centuries. Some reaction may take place and then somebody else may turn up. (Laughter)

SATYENDRA: He does not seem to make much distinction between moral and spiritual force.

SRI AUROBINDO: None at all.

SATYENDRA: Nirod will bring down the Supermind to solve all the problems.

SRI AUROBINDO: What is the prospect, Nirod? Is it near?

NIRODBARAN: I will bring it down for Satyendra.

SRI AUROBINDO (laughing): Instead of bringing down the Supermind it will be better at the moment to enter Narvik and do something there. Churchill is speaking of an assault. He has to show that he means it by doing something practical.

SATYENDRA: They are still two miles from Narvik.

SRI AUROBINDO: And still as far away as possible.

NIRODBARAN: The Hindu says Gamelin recoils at the horror of the sacrifice of lives that will be entailed in an attack on the Siegfried Line.

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SRI AUROBINDO : Yes, he does not want to sacrifice life as was done in the last war. No such repetition this time, he says. It will be a defensive war with as little loss as possible. But his tone is already changing.

SATYENDRA: These people didn't prepare themselves well because they thought Hitler was bluffing. They didn't take him seriously.

SRI AUROBINDO: Hitler does not bluff. He has done everything he has said he would do — only, in his own time. Mussolini bluffs, but when he acts, he does it thoroughly.

PURANI: He seems to intend to come in at the end and get a share.

SRI AUROBINDO: Yes, but that share won't be for long. Hitler will finish him in no time. Italy is vulnerable on all sides. So Mussolini can't take any action suddenly.

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